by Bill Seng Reason 3) Experience Just like atheists, I base my beliefs off of experience. Yes, I said it: Just like atheists, I base my beliefs off of experience. Can a person possibly believe in something that does not make sense of his or her own experiences? In past conversations I have used the argument that I believe in the Bible based off of my experience. To elaborate, I assert that what it says about the world makes sense to me. It is when I testify that my relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit is intimate and real that I face scrutiny. A typical response from someone who does not believe in God is, “You know, some people might believe that there are pink unicorns everywhere that only they can see.” That is not the type of experience I base my beliefs off of, nor is it the type of experience any sane person bases their beliefs off of. The atheistic claim that they base their beliefs off of unbiased factual evidence is not true. If you learn enough about any given atheist you will learn that his or her disposition against God is deeply rooted in some sort of a negative experience. For some it is a traumatic event. For others it is the brutal nature of the world in which we live. A rather large contingent claims that it is because of the hypocrisy of certain churchgoers. So, they say all of this stuff about Christianity denying reality and ignoring evidence is nonsense and not genuine. The root of the atheistic claim is purely experiential. Likewise, one of the biggest reasons I accept the teachings of the Bible is because it makes more sense of reality than any other text I have ever read. The conflict of the book is that there is suffering and death in the world that has been brought upon us through mankind’s rebellion against God. The solution was that someone had to reconcile mankind to God, which happened to be the God-man Jesus Christ. Science does not tell us where death and suffering came from. Other religions tell us that there is something that we must do to make ourselves right with God. God himself told his people that he hated their sacrifices. When righteousness is works-based, mankind’s inclination is to do the work as though going through the motions. What results is known as dead religion in which God is not truly being worshipped (Amos 5:21). My experiences tell me that mankind is in big trouble whether God exists or not. If God does not exist, we are walking down the path of extinction because for whatever reason there seems to be a natural law that, when it is violated, the foundations of the earth tend to crumble (metaphorically, of course). We seem to be crossing that line and are testing how far we can go with it every day. If the God of the Bible is for real, we are violating his laws every day and are deserving of his judgments. With the nature of the perceived ills in our world, it makes more sense to me that our ability to comprehend evil is derived from truths that are revealed in the Bible. Otherwise nobody would truly know what is good and what is evil. Most importantly, my experience is that mankind truly does need a Savior. How many times have you said to yourself, “There has to be more to life than this!”? I don’t care if you have never been through anything truly traumatic. Life becomes mundane and seems meaningless at times. With all of the death and suffering in the world it might seem that we only live so that we might die another day. Paul referred to this state of existence as “without hope and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12). It is obvious that we need a Savior, if not from sin then at least from the toils of everyday life! Fortunately for us, the Bible doesn’t only provide us with the problem but it reveals to us God’s solution for both our toil and for sin. Paul’s assertion to the once hopeless Ephesians was that, “in Christ Jesus you who once were far away [from God] have been brought near through the blood of Christ” (2:13). Jesus’ atoning sacrifice satisfied God’s wrath so that it is no longer necessary that all people should be condemned for their sins. Nor is it necessary that people toil in vain because Jesus has already done the work that has made us right with God. We live in a fallen world that has been shown mercy and is being saved by grace. The Holy Spirit confirms this truth in our hearts. If you are seeing pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters, or Thors following you around I would advise you to seek professional help immediately. If you want a dose of reality I suggest you crack open a Bible.
22 comments:
There are billions of people out there who have never read the Bible, don't practice Christianity, yet still know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad.
"So, they say all of this stuff about Christianity denying reality and ignoring evidence is nonsense and not genuine."
The reality is: Earth and our Solar System is billions of years old.
Many Christians ignore this evidence and simply refer to the Bible as their proof that the world is only 4000 years old.
Another reality: Evolution
Another topic where Christians ignore the evidence and simply point to their Bible versus about Adam and Eve.
A rather large contingent claims that it is because of the hypocrisy of certain churchgoers.
You mean like the right wingers on the radio constantly denouncing the poor and doing absolutely nothing to help them?
Anonymous,
How are right and wrong, good and bad, determined? Who determines? If it is relative, how is it consistent regardless of time, culture, language, etc? We can demonstrate that from the Bible and we can demonstrate that morality only makes sense if what the Bible says is true...regardless of one's profession of faith in it.
Age of the earth and Evolution. Reality is science cannot determine the age of the earth. And I have the credentials to speak on this matter. Reality is all the dating methods that supposedly claim the earth is billions of years old have significant flaws. Both internal and external. I don't want to get into that in this post, but I will do a blog post on how faulty these methods are soon.
Evolution. There are many who do ignore it and they really don't know what they believe. But many of us here at Worldview Warriors do. There is still not a single piece of evidence for Evolution that does not also fit with the Biblical worldview. And that makes it transparent to the issue. Evolution has NOTHING to support itself. And to be honest, I cannot think of a scientific law or principle that Evolution does not violate in order to work out.
Yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy in church goers. We can account for why that happens in Romans 7. It's not something we are proud of, but it does show that God can and does use broken and weak vessels. And it shows that one does not have to reach perfection to be able to be used by God. As far as those right wingers on the radio, do you know what they are doing outside their time on the radio? I doubt that, so how can you make such a claim? Do you know what they are doing? And what is more, if you are going to complain about them helping the poor, are you doing anything about it to prove them wrong? By what grounds do you have to accuse them? Don't use the Bible unless you are going to admit giving it authority.
It is sad that there are billions of people who have not had the opportunity to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Indeed, they do still know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad. This is not contrary to a Biblical worldview. We believe that sin entered the world when Adam and Eve ate from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. Clearly, it makes perfect sense that everyone should generally understand the difference between good and evil. What you are preaching here is not liberation, but condemnation toward the world and,sadly, to yourself if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. But I have good news for you. If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, not only will you be saved, but you can be used as an instrument of God's grace to help bring the knowledge of Jesus to those millions that have not had the opportunity to hear about him. If I were you, I'd get crackin' on this because you already acknowledge that there is a right and wrong, and a good and evil. That can't be good, unless you choose to do that which is good.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Jesus and STILL reject it.
I don't have to rely on a book or a god figure to tell me what's right and what's wrong.
I do not need a crutch.
That makes me a stronger person. Just like anyone else who does good without doing so in the name of any religion.
And by some weird small chance your version of God does exist, I'll still be accepted into the club. Your own pope said just that not too long ago.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Buddha and STILL reject it.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Ra and STILL reject it.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Zeus and STILL reject it.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Ganesh and STILL reject it.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Vishnu and STILL reject it.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Xenu and STILL reject it.
And it's far more sad when people do have the opportunity to hear about Quetzalcoatl and STILL reject it.
Do you sense a pattern here?
We've been creating gods for well more than 6000 years and we've been creating books that prove gods are real for more than 6000 years.
I love a good fiction book as well as the next person but I don't live my life according to any of them.
You accuse us of just believing whatever we hear from wherever or who ever. I would hate to burst your bubble, but why do you believe what you believe. You probably heard it from a teacher and read it in a text book...isn't this essentially what you are demeaning us for. and don't play this game that it is different for x, y, and z reason...you didn't do the actual studies, you haven't experienced these things happening right in front of you, and you cannot show me or anyone else examples of what you are talking about in action. you rely on faith as much as anyone else. I think my post hits the nail on the head with everything else I want to say. sorry if I sound arrogant or demeaning. that is not my intent, but I bet you never get called out on those things.
what you said about being "accepted into our club" just for being a good person is simply not true. And who are my own ppl, btw? certainly not one of my brothers or sisters in wvw! We all acknowledge that Jesus is the only way to be saved. And as far as I know, there are 4 of us that have theology degrees of some sort, a doctor who I recently learned knows a ton about philosophy, Charlie I believe is like a physicist of some sort and an author, and Jason studies all of this stuff independently and has one of the most renowned mentors in evangelical Christianity today. Works are not going to get you into heaven. It is not because I am better than you that I am going to heaven, it is because I submit to Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
I reject all of the false gods you mentioned and any false "non-religion." Many of the people who have rejected that list of false gods you posted, that grew up believing in them, did not do so shamefully or out of guilt. they did so because Jesus liberates people from bondage. Before they met Jesus, they were in bondage to their false gods whom they could never please. And I happen to know a couple of ppl who grew up in foreign countries and were brought up in other religions who later accepted Jesus. So no. It is not sad when ppl reject a false god. it is only sad when you reject Jesus.
and one more thing: when did I bring up the age of the earth in this post? not all Christians believe the world is only 6,000 years old. I do, personally, but I am addressing the general question of why any given Christian chooses to trust the Bible over any other religious text. So far, you have not addressed the topic or anything I have said in its proper context. I believe it is because you know that what I say is true.
Anonymous, you clearly demonstrate you do not know the slightest thing about Christianity. I can tell because all your attacks so far in all the posts you've made in these discussions have been against strawmen of what we actually believe. It is easy to ridicule and "take down" a false image of your own making. But you have demonstrated great struggled in actually addressing our actual position.
As Bill said above, all of us at Worldview Warriors have years of experience in our fields and we have done our homework. I know Jason used to be an atheist like you but when he did some honest investigation, like many before him, he found the Bible to be true. Christianity is unique from every other religion and the God of the Bible is unique from all the other false gods you listed. What makes Christianity stand out so much? Keep following Bill's series here. In the three he's done so far, none of those gods you listed or the religions associated with them can address the issues that Christianity does.
So as Bill asked, I will ask you too. What have you personally researched on the matter? To be honest, you sound like many of the other atheists I've encountered over the years. You've brought absolutely nothing new to the table, nothing I haven't heard before, and you haven't even said it in your own words. I've heard the exact same thing from many other people just like a parrot only able to regurgitate what they have been told. In one of your first posts here, you spoke of the "reality" that the earth and the Solar System is billions of years old and the Evolution is true. Tell me, you actually KNOW how those figures and those models are determined? Do you know what goes into putting those models together? Have you studied what is going on with them? Or are you just repeated what you have been told countless times in the classroom? I can easily refute both because do not take the "experts" word on blind faith. I check it out. Even with God and the Bible. I check it out. Does it pan out? God has never turned down an honest inquiry. Those who honestly seek if he is real will find him. Can you do that?
Your God is certainly twisted if he gave man the free will to discover Radiometric dating thus disproving the 6000 year old Earth idea.
As for Bill (and the rest of you for that matter) you do certainly come off as arrogant when you say: 'There can only be one God and that is my God.'
That flies in the face of the other 6 Billion people on this planet that have other religious affiliations or no affiliation at all.
God gave us the free will to choose him or to reject him. There have been MANY different ideas that have tried to reject him. We don't just believe God exists, we believe Satan exists as well. And Satan has been very active in doing whatever he can do get people to disbelieve God, even with outright lies worse than radiometric dating. And he does that by whispering things into your ear that pleases yourself. Radiometric dating is just one of the methods being used today. 200 years ago, it was something else. 1000 years ago it was something else. But if God were to take that away, we would be puppets and God did not want us to be puppets.
Anonymous, don't read what we are not saying. The truth of the matter is only one believe can be true, if any. Why? Because all of them are mutually exclusive. All of them claim to be the one truth. How do we tell that Christianity is the one? It's not "my way or the highway". We are not out to start our own religion where you must follow the teachings of Worldview Warriors or you are a lost sinner doomed to hell. That is not what we are saying at all. We believe the Bible is true and we are giving the reasons why we believe that. What you do with that is your choice.
" If you learn enough about any given atheist you will learn that his or her disposition against God is deeply rooted in some sort of a negative experience. For some it is a traumatic event. For others it is the brutal nature of the world in which we live. A rather large contingent claims that it is because of the hypocrisy of certain churchgoers. So, they say all of this stuff about Christianity denying reality and ignoring evidence is nonsense and not genuine. The root of the atheistic claim is purely experiential."
Well, I guess you haven't met me, then. I had a very positive time growing up in the church. I became a "born again" Christian. I enjoyed fellowship with other christians, and didn't notice any hypocrisy. Then in my early 20's, I stopped believing. It wasn't because I read something by atheists, or because I saw something about evolution. In fact, I was reading Christian apologetics to try to keep my faith.
I don't expect you to believe me, because of Bible verses that supposedly tell you how I really think.
" There is still not a single piece of evidence for Evolution that does not also fit with the Biblical worldview."
There is no evidence that would be incompatible with your Biblical worldview. Your claims about creation are not falsifiable. That doesn't mean that your views on creation aren't correct, it just means that it isn't science.
David J. I disagree with your comments. You clearly felt that the information you were coming across was more consistent with a secular interpretation vs. a biblical interpretation. This is purely experiential and I am not claiming you are crazy for believing what you believe. We can play this childish game where we throw facts back and forth at one another to prove each other wrong, or we can both concede that at some point we both rely on faith.
I find it sad that you renounced your faith David. I don't feel like it is on me to tell you why you renounced your faith because that is honestly between you and God.
What you are claiming, however, is that you read the Bible and initially believed it, not based off of experience but just because. Then you read a science book and believed it, not because of experience but just because. This is the epitome of blind faith if what you are saying is true. But you seem like someone who is inquisitive so I am not going to believe the notion that you baselessly believe what you claim to believe. Am I right for doing so, or is it truly blind faith you employ?
Ultimately, if you deny that you base your beliefs off of personal experience, but I say that I base my beliefs off of personal experience you are denying that your beliefs have a basis in reality while I am confirming that my beliefs make sense of reality. I hope that this response has been thought provoking.
David, after reviewing your post once again, the way you present your argument is even worse than what I thought. You basically say that NOTHING that you came across swayed you against Christianity or the Bible. You in fact, claim that you were trying to keep the faith...against...what? If nothing was challenging your faith then why were you having to read apologetics? I'm going to go ahead and say it. Your claim is a bold faced LIE because it makes no sense. Please explain or I will not bother responding to any other replies from you. It would simply be a waste of my time.
I didn't tell you why I stopped believing. All I was doing was rejecting this claim of yours:
"If you learn enough about any given atheist you will learn that his or her disposition against God is deeply rooted in some sort of a negative experience."
I also said that it wasn't literature from atheists or scientists that caused me to abandon my faith.
Of course me experiences influence what I believe.
Excellent post, Bill. I think you're right on with this stuff. There are rarely people who genuinely don't believe in God (or a god). Most atheists are God deniers. They're mad or blame Him for something or whatever. Pure atheism doesn't actually make sense from a logical standpoint or from an internally consistent stance. Many reasons for that...but you did a great job here. Thanks.
Someone foolishly said "You mean like the right wingers on the radio constantly denouncing the poor and doing absolutely nothing to help them"
That's absurd. Studies show overwhelmingly that conservatives are FAR more charitable than liberals. You can find more studies than you have time to read on that. Liberalism is only charitable if you consider taking someone else's money and giving it to another (while holding onto a bit for the trouble I guess)charitable.
And to state that right and wrong are only relative is obviously not true. Claiming societies that haven't heard of Jesus Christ or read the Bible know right from wrong proves the Bible's statements on the matter. You think it's the other way around which shows your lack of knowledge on the subject, in my opinion.
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